Normally, I don’t really tackle serious subjects here at Wild Hare, but this is a topic that nags at my mind and confuses me greatly. It is the topic of abortion, but not from the standpoint of whether or not I’m for or against it…what confuses me, is if Roe v. Wade is over turned and abortion is once again illegal in the United States, what do we do the day after? In the roughest sense of things, those that are pro-life argue that by having an abortion a person, namely a woman, is killing a child…life begins at conception. I don’t really want to argue that point, for or against, what I want to know is this…What are we as Americans going to do with the 1.3 million (these stats were found on many sites…I don’t argue the absolute validity or lack of validity of these numbers, they are here to illustrate my point more than anything) children that are born each year, that would have most likely been aborted? Let’s just say that half of those children are kept by their birth parents and those individuals are grateful and overjoyed with their new child and are so glad they didn’t have an abortion. We are now left with 650,000 children. For arguments sake, let’s say half of those children are adopted…we are now at 325, 000 children. What do we do with them? I know some people would argue that all of those children would be with their birth parents, but given the statistics of babies left in dumpsters and babies left to die (and abortion is still legal), I don’t think that’s a realistic option. Are we as Americans prepared to augment the foster care system to pay for an additional 325,000 children each year? What measures have been taken for the day after? Are orphanages in the works to be built and running? And what of those children with serious medical challenges? What of their educations? What sort of life are we bringing them into? My queries aren’t an argument saying that it’s better to have an abortion than bring a child into a wretched existence, I just really want to know what would happen to the children. A right to life is an amazing gift, but what about quality of life? I’ve written to many people who argue for and against this issue and am repeatedly told that I’m not looking at the real issue, this is about God’s plans or a woman’s right to choose…from what I can tell, it’s about children. And the day after isn’t given much thought.
Life favors the prepared
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December 6, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Hawk
Life certainly does favor the prepared.
Your questions are very valid, to which I have nothing substantive to offer.
This particular issue remains just as controversial now at it did when the court made their decision in 1973, striking down the anti-abortion law in Texas as unconstitutional, ruling that women have the guaranteed right to privacy (I think under the 14th Amendment), and unborn fetuses were not considered persons entitled to equal protection under the law. I may be fuzzy on this, but I think this was the basic foundation of their decision.
Let’s say it were overturn in the present, we would have a catastrophe on our hands. All you have to do is look around; Houston, Miami, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and other metropolitan areas and see first-hand that the numerous social service agencies are already heavily burdened with a caseload that is too much to deal with, working within a system that doesn’t really work, and in general, caseworkers and others who are generally apathetic and feckless at their jobs. In short, the system sucks. How much more would it suck if Abortion were to become illegal.
Don’t get me wrong, there are some very good social workers out there, and some do affect some change trying to work within a system that is not interested in being fixed. But, how long do they last, hoping for change in system that has become its own worst nightmare? Dunno… The politicians will tell you it is complicated issue, like immigration. I wish I knew.
I seriously doubt whether this prior decision will be ever be overturned. It could, and it is certainly possible with the right appointments to the bench, but I think it’s improbable. Whether overturned or not, it is all about the children. Yours, mine, and everyones!
Too many people are walking around with their heads up their ass, and in some instances, heads up others asses from getting real close to give ‘em some double smooches.
I’m just wondering when we are going to cease from being a Nation of Ass-Kissers?
I got off a tad on this one! Your post is very good and it brings home and to heart, very serious issues that must be addressed.
Thanks Harley
XOXO
December 6, 2007 at 8:36 pm
missharleyquinn
Thanks for the visit, Hawk. Your mentioning of we Americans being told how complicated things are, how very complex they are, drives me insane. If it’s that complex then maybe they can dumb it down for us. Hell, I learn quickly and I’m willing to try to understand things…gracious I’ve read the Patriot Act and the 9/11 Report…I’m not afraid of details or lengthy papers. As Al franken says, “Republicans complain about how poorly the government works, to get elected and then prove it when they are in office.” I think thats true for all political parties. We as Americans are so busy trying to buy the latest thing or wear the hottest something (basically your heads up asses theory), we tend to let the media and the government do our thinking for us. I’m glad to know there are people like you out there who are thinking and questioning. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart on that, dear Hawk. *hugs*
December 6, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Polar
Tip toe through the MINE FIELD!…Harley,
Seldom does a person enter this fray and not get injured. Do you realize that you are using logic in the face of Politics & Religion? This is one of those issues where people always say “You’re with me or against me, & someone needs to die!”. Oh well here goes.
I feel abortion is an Effect not a Cause. A symptom if you like. To me arguing for or against it is the same as arguing whether rainy days are cloudy. We can not solve the abortion issue by targeting abortion. If we want to live in a world where all children ARE treated like the precious little gifts they are, then we need to deal with our Societies & Cultures first. For our Societies & Cultures foment the attitudes and habits that lead to so much misery. What would it take to do that? Responsibility, Common sense, Backbones, I don’t know. I just know one cannot change Human nature with laws. Our Nature will need to change first. Abortion will work itself out afterwards.
Holy mackerel am I biting my tongue right now! I promised myself that I would not get political in these pages yet I.. keep… getting…. temp… ted… Uughh. Harley I’m sorry for venting. I know I didn’t answer anything. But I better shut up now while I still can.
As a side note. Did you know that there are people that think the first abortion did not happen until After Roe vs. Wade. They fail to realize it Predates Human Civilization!
OH I’m sorry. Did I say that out loud. Yeah, Yeah, I know. I’m going to Hell. Whatever!
Dear Polar,
Never apologize for venting, which I like to think of as loud thinking. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree, we all need discourse and things that provoke our minds. But, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments on this issue and the general issue of kids. But, really, its not juts kids…how can we have a society that feels the life of an unborn child is so incredibly important and yet also feels the death penalty is acceptable. Why is one playing at God and the other a form of justice? Why aren’t all people seen as precious gifts? There is something good in everyone, something to give and something to share…I’m not even certain what our society values anymore. It’s okay if you’re going to hell, I’ll be there too. I’ll save you a spot on the Mt. Doom hiking team.
December 6, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Hawk
You are very welcome my friend. If I may, I would just like to add a couple of things. LOL!
As bad as it sounds, we have become a nation of lambs. And lambs are generally lead to slaughter. You have probably heard there exists three types of people; lambs, wolves, and sheep-dogs. I have never been a lamb. A wolf on occasion as required by my work and travels, but always, and always forever, I have been a sheep-dog.
We need to be vocal. We need to be active. We need more than 51% of eligible voters to participate in the democratic process by voting, even if they don’t think their one voice counts. Though it does.
We need a revolution in the sense, that each and everyone one of us need to stop turning the cheek of indifference, and cease with being apathetic. What’s required is social activism, and we need to stand in strength to let these damn wolves in Washington and elsewhere know if they don’t start representing the majority as promised, they asses are going to be kicked out of office.
I’m for term limits. It’s high time long-term political careers were ended. Public Service my ass. The majority of them don’t serve the public; they serve what is ever in the best interests of their own pocketbooks.
I really detest the state of affairs within our country. The bureaucracy, the lying political hacks, the biased press, the bullshit campaign promises, and everything else. But, I continue to be hopeful. There are a great many things wrong with our country that need to be fixed. However, there are a good many things too. Even when things are all screwed-up, there is no better place in the world to be. I can personally attest to this, because I have been to a helluva lot of places.
Your closing about how we allow the media and the government do our thinking for us is exactly on the money. It’s happened to us because as a collective body, we have permitted it occur.
Please accept my apology for bringing out the soapbox. I usually don’t do this. If you would like to remove this commentary, I would not be offended.
This was a damn good topic. I wonder how many others will chime in on this? We’ll see…won’t we!
Later…
December 6, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Sorrow
Miss H,
Okay , since it’s soap box time, I am hopping up on mine now!
Damn right it’s about the kids! The kids who need love, need to be held , need guidance and rules, boundaries! They need examples of what it means to be a member of this human race. They don’t need the Damn idiot box to tell them how to dress, look, think, act, behave. They need ADULTS! and as I look around I see fewer and fewer of those. Oh yeah, a person may be 30, 40, even 50, but my 15 year old has a lot more common sense and decency than a whole hell of a lot of people I meet these days!
I read an article, that I wish I could find and a link about the orphanages in Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Herzegovina where infants out numbered their care givers 5-1 during the wars over there, and those children have shown signs of so many personality disorders from the lack of being held and nurtured it’s terrifying.
I throw my Lot with Polar, We need to work on our culture, our society , our politics, when we can cure the malaise and apathy of our pleasure seeking denizens , than it would follow that such issues as abortion and child rearing would self address.
I hear you Harley, and I am with you, it’s not about pro or against, it’s about the kids. They are the future, and we need to be present for them NOW.
I have always believed that the way we treat the least in the world (and by least I tend to think most vulnerable) reveals who we truly are. When we see children as a burden, what are we saying about ourselves? When we see animals as dumb creatures, what are we saying about ourselves? When we see nature as something to exploit and desecrate, what are we saying about ourselves? It is the culture you, Polar, Hawk, and Grace speak of that we must embrace, breath…it is our last, best hope.
December 7, 2007 at 12:06 am
Grace
This is a fantastic – and very emotional – topic, Harley. I tip my Wonder Bra to you in honor and admiration for having the ChaChas to bring it up.
It’s about Children. It’s about PEOPLE.
I agree with Polar – Abortion is the symptom of an underlying issue, not the issue itself. And with a history of almost 5,000 years – recorded history – I seriously doubt OUR generation is going to see an end to the practice of abortion.
Hawk – that was the ASS cheek of indifference that’s been turning, right?
The Day After?
More women dying from illegal abortions. Because in all honesty, if a woman wants one – she’ll find a way to get one. And there are enough Back Street MDs out there who will absolutely find their Niche should Roe v. Wade overturn a woman’s access to legalized abortions. If anyone…ANYONE…thinks that making an abortion illegal will ‘stop’ them? They’re seriously…buttheaded (ie., headuptheass)
Will there be more kids? Sure. And I have one possible solution for caring for them …something my friends on the Left won’t like but will definitely free up some public assistance money so maybe we could create some decent places for the kids to be homed: DEPORT ILLEGALS. If you’re not here legally, you don’t get to stay and you sure as hell don’t get ‘aid’ that my own kid can’t get and that I’m goddamn paying for. Come back into our country legally and I’ll scootch over and make room for you in the bed and we’ll have the doctor pay a house call.
But no other nation on the face of the planet allows the sorts of nonsense we do where ILLEGAL immigration is concerned.
As you can tell
I hold a lot of energy of these issues.
I don’t really understand why people would prefer to be illegal aliens than legal aliens. As might be rather obvious at this point, I don’t understand a lot! *l* What exactly is the benefit of being illegal over legal? I’m not certain what I think about immigration…if people want to come to America and its very difficult to receive citizenship (Is it? I don’t know) maybe it does make sense that they would come here illegally…I’m ignorant on this one, but would love to learn more…there is a quote I like about illegal imigration though…”If you think you have a problem with illegal immigrants, talk to a Native American”
December 7, 2007 at 3:02 am
missharleyquinn
Hawk,
The fields change, the weapons may be words and deeds…not sabers and muskets, but old Abe still makes sense:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation, so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
P.S. I like your soap box and would NEVER remove your comments…free speech and forward thinking are embraced ’round these parts.
December 7, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Hawk
An excellent selection of GREAT WORDS by a GREAT MAN!
December 12, 2007 at 8:06 pm
mystarbucks
Wow, that is a really deep question. I am going to have to agree with some of the comments above. Illegal abortion will surely be available and not like it was years ago in basements with dirty instraments. There will be doctors, nurses who will continue to provide the service whether it is legal or not.
With that said, we will have to increase our already overcrowded jail sizes because when those people who are caught getting and performing illegal abortions they will in turn go to jail.
It seems to me that it is a vicious circle. And I am against abortion anyway but it may lead to more trouble than it’s worth to change it.
December 14, 2007 at 4:36 am
missharleyquinn
My StarBucks - My apologies for taking so much time to get back to this thread…blame the cookies! *lol* On the side of my dish soap is a quote about a tribe of indians that say , before making a decsion we should truly understand what it will do to the next seven generations…perhaps that would help with this issue. Thanks for coming by and commenting. *hugs*
January 11, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Wardeh
As a purist, or someone who would like to be a purist, I would argue that one should do the right thing. Children should not be aborted.
Because we are fearful of making the ills of society worse should not deter us from doing the right thing.
The reason that society is so bad is that people are selfish. They don’t love enough. They don’t follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus is Love. Not enough Jesus = not enough Love.
You did say you didn’t want to talk about that, though. But I had to state it because I believe we have to come down to a hard and fast discussion over what’s right.
I do hear what you’re saying. I don’t want you to think I don’t. If I might suggest though, your argument sounds to me like another argument I’ve heard recently. There are those that say we should keep spraying DDT in third world countries because the DDT kills the insects that carry malaria. The result of that is that the inhabitants don’t get malaria. So according to this argument, the poisonous DDT is performing a greater good.
I disagree with this on the same grounds that I disagree with the argument you’ve made. If legal abortions are keeping our social system from degrading even more than it already has, this is not a good reason for continuing to allow it. We should instead do the right thing — make abortions illegal and set about to fix the ails of society.
But since you asked… what about the children? Well, I would imagine there are many, many good loving people who have not put their foot forward for adoption. I have a feeling this is true (but I can’t prove it). I feel they haven’t stepped forward because they know that it is difficult to adopt a baby, so why try? And they also know that in order to adopt from another country there is more red tape and lots of money required. These are the people who would come out of the woodwork to love the babies we save from death.
Instead of aborting babies, I suggest that the other things should be fixed so that the babies can go to loving homes. I would jump at the chance to take one!
I said earlier that we should set about to fix the ails of our society. I don’t believe that is truly possible until Jesus returns to heal the earth. There are many good people who act in love all the time. But there are not enough of them and too many of those who act selfishly and hurt others. But in the meantime, we should never allow individuals to legally end a baby’s life.
I read this post back when you wrote it. I have wanted to respond here many times but didn’t have my thoughts together. I hope what I wrote didn’t offend you; I didn’t mean for it to come across that way if it did. I think you’re articulate, deep, and a true thinker and I admire those qualities in you.
Love, Wardeh
Dear Wardeh,
I agree with you that there isn’t nearly enough love in the world, nearly not enough choices made from love. So many choices seem to be made out of greed or selfishness. I also agree that doing the right thing is what we as human beings should do. How often are decisions based in what a person will gain or lose though? As a nation how often do we see suffering in terms of money made or money lost? Never really seeing the suffering on the level of the individual that is trying to survive and trying to do whats right?
Before I go on, I want you to know that nothing you wrote offends me. I am pleased you feel comfortable enough to express yourself without censor. And I don’t mind you wanting to discuss the religious aspects of this issue, I chose not to, but certainly leave the door open for anyone else to do so.
I believe what bothers me about the issue of Roe v. Wade in this context is that I do believe it will be over turned and I also believe we as a nation are unprepared for it. I’m tired of the government making and changing laws and leaving the people to pick up the pieces without adequate resources. There must be accountibility and thats more what my argument is about and perhaps I should have taken more time and thought to make that clear. I want every child to have what our children have; loving homes, a roof over their heads, warm clothing, an education, and good health care. I don’t want any of them to fall through the cracks simply because no one thought to set something in motion to insure their quality of life, while busy arguing for their right to life. By no means is this an argument for keeping abortion legal, simply because its easier than the other options. I guess its like the old fable about the ant and the grasshopper and there is nothing wrong with actually planning for the winter and working to survive the winter. If people truly want to see abortion end then we as a society must be prepared to take care of the ones who no one wants and insure they have good lives.
I could go on and on about my thoughts on this topic, but suffice it to say…this is about children and I don’t want a single one to slip through the cracks.
Thanks for stopping by and a double thanks for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed your insight and points.
January 11, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Wardeh
I should have made it more clear that I understood you weren’t arguing for abortion. I’m sorry because the way I wrote my thoughts made it sound like I thought you were. I do know that you weren’t.
Love, Wardeh
I understand. Abortion is a tricky issue to discuss with so much passion involved, it’s easy to step on a land mine…but you didn’t. You were perfectly clear and I appreciate your thoughts and writings. *hugs*